From Tragedy to Olympian with Cliff Meidl and Dr. Malcolm LeSavoy

Thank you for tuning in to the True Grit and Grace podcast. I'm Amberly Lago and I'll be sharing inspirational stories of resilience and empowering ideas to elevate your business and your life, ignite your passion and fuel your purpose. Hello and welcome to another episode of True Grit and Grace. Today. I'm so excited. I know we're going to have a lot of fun. I have an amazing story of tragedy to triumph. Today's guests are inspiring as they come. I have Cliff Meitel and Dr. Malcolm LeCaboy here with us. It's really a culmination of a dream come true that involved faith, science, an amazing skill set and mindset and a whole lot of grit. I have Beverly Hills board certified plastic and reconstructive surgeon, Dr. Malcolm Lesevoy. He was the chief of plastic surgery for 25 years at UCLA. He's got three books. His work has gained global recognition on Oprah, Nip Tuck, Extreme Makeover, ABC News, and the Discovery Channel. But what I'm most inspired by is your heart and your friendship and how you saved Cliff's legs from amputation and changed his life forever. It's a miracle, really. It's truly a miracle. Now Cliff Meitel has gone on to do what many people dream of doing. An American kayaker, Cliff Meitel led his United States Olympian teammates onto the field at the opening ceremonies of the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games as nearly 200 billion people watched. He's a two time Olympian kayaker, a national spokesperson for safety related organizations. He does motivational speaking around the world, has been awarded several prestigious awards, selected as an Olympic honored of the Olympic Heroes series that features 20 of the most inspirational US Olympias. And the list goes on and on. And I'm just so excited to have you all here. I feel honored to get to be in the presence of both of you. So thank you so much and welcome to the show.

Thanks for inviting us.

Yeah. Thank you very much for having us.

Yeah, well, yeah, I've heard so many incredible things about you from Sabine, who I met at secret knock and she's like, you've got to hear their story. It's amazing. And of course it really touched my heart because I had a doctor that saved my leg from amputation. Then when I learned of your story and I saw the pictures of what you had gone through, I was like, oh, wow. This is truly a miracle that you are walking and you are an Olympian. So I would love to start with Cliff with you first and just could you please take us Back to when your journey began, when your life changed forever. I wondered how old you were, what year that was, and exactly what happened.

The actual accident happened in 1986. But I was born and raised on the beaches of Southern California. And I would classify myself as a moderate type of athlete. I did a lot of sports growing up, did a lot of track and field and played soccer and did all that stuff. And then I had the opportunity after I graduated from high school to take this job as working as a plumber's apprentice. So I was working on a job site. And then that One day of November 19, 1986, my life turned completely around 180 degrees. And I went from boyhood to manhood in a very quick fashion.

Well, I saw the pictures of your jeans that they had to cut off of you at the accident. And then I saw the pictures. And when that accident happened, did it just knock you out completely? Were you unconscious or were you aware of what was going on?

Well, I wasn't aware at all. I was working with a couple of coworkers that were on site. I had some mentors at the time that I was working with. And it was just like that. You know, I couldn't tell you if I was dead or alive. Lights went out. Really? Yeah. I woke up 16 hours later, and here I was in this hospital environment. I was in a. In this trauma center. And here my mom and dad are standing next to me wearing these white coats. So you can imagine it was like being in this dream. And then I remember trying to get myself out of bed. And that's when my mother had told me that you can't do anything. And I was kind of tied down and kind of restrained in my bed at the time. And that's when she had told me, you've been involved in this horrific accident. So I really didn't know what had happened. But going back to what actually did happen, I was operating a jackhammer and I ended up jackhammering into this concrete area. I hit three power lines with 4160 volts. So I got one heck of a shock. And as people know, with electricity you can't see it, But I can guarantee you in a test that you can definitely feel it.

Yeah, well, I mean, that in itself, it's amazing that you even woke up after being shocked like that. But thank goodness you didn't. It knocked you. I mean. Well, because when I was hit with by the suv, I remember every detail. People are like, you remember what that I was like? Oh yeah, I remember. Every part. So.

But did you get the license?

I actually. I did. No, I ripped the bumper right off that car. But. But I wondered when you woke up and your mom told you that there's been this horrible accident. You look down at your legs, did the doctors tell you right away, we're going to amputate, or.

No, there was a course of time. So I think one of the things was, is that, first of all, it was an enormously traumatic experience in life. We're not really trained for dealing with adversity, especially traumatic adversity. And it happens just like that. And I look back at my story, and my mother was only 42 years of age, and she got this telephone call from the superintendent where he essentially said that, first of all, Cliff's been involved in this horrific accident. You better get to the hospital. But then he tells my mom that we don't know if he's going to live or die, so you better come to the hospital quick. There was a lot of scrambling going on. My parents weren't trained in medicine at all whatsoever, so they really didn't know how to cope with this. But I think that what my mom did very well was breaking down barriers. And the first barrier that she had to break down was I was in this trauma center, and they were kind of assessing what had happened to me. At this time, I was completely unconscious. I had no idea what was going on. And, you know, at that point in time. And that's what a lot of people don't realize. You know, when you get involved in a traumatic situation, someone's got to drive the bus.

Yeah.

And, you know, a lot of times it's our parents that have to make these, you know, split of the moment decisions, and they have to do things really quickly. And when my mom showed up to the hospital, they're basically saying, listen, lady, you know, you can't come in here. Your son's in critical condition. But I always like to say, you know, with my mom, there's one thing that you don't want to tell a mom is the word no. And she kind of inverted that. And that meant on. And she recalled that, you know, if she's not going to be able to see her son, what's the reason? So she just barged right in through the trauma center doors, and that's where she saw me for the first time, laying on this breadboard. And I still had my legs at that time. She said that they were still smoldering from the electrical burns because of the degree of burns that I Had with electricity. It's very chaotic, and it's unpredictable. It goes throughout your entire body, and it finds different weak points, and they call those exit wounds. And I had several exit wounds throughout my body. But then I also had a lot of contact burns, too, where when I slid back down into the hole, my knees came in contact with the jackhammer. And so I had about a third of the knee compartment burned. So you can imagine the trauma behind that. But it's the parents that have to make these quick, you know, split decisions at that time.

So how old were you at the time?

I was 20 years of age.

20 years. Wow. Yeah. Well, you know, when I realized, of course, when I got hit by an suv, this is. This could be serious. I didn't realize how serious it was until I woke up out of a coma and saw my mom there. And I was like, oh, wow. If my mom took off work to be here, this must be pretty bad. And it was the same. My mom was actually guarding the ICU room door because people were trying to come in, and she was. They told her, nobody can come in. We're worried about infection. So she. I had a friend that came in, and she, like, nearly tackled them. Like, you can't go near her because she was. So that mama bear instinct comes out, and they just want to protect us. Thank goodness for your mom being there, because she got in the door. Then they told you that they were gonna. Told her they were gonna have to amputate. But she didn't take that as the final answer, right?

No, not at all. I mean, there was a time period, you know, for. I went from a normal hospital setting to a specialized burn ward. And then I was going through various different types of surgical procedures at the time. Primarily, they were debridement procedures, where they're. It sounds a little crude, but they were scraping a little bit of the bone to find out exactly what the extent of the surgery was. And then it was probably about a month after I was in my accident, Three weeks to a month. And my father was coming up in an elevator with my younger brother, and these three doctors had walked in, and one of the doctors said, hey, did you hear about that kid up in the icu? And then my father kind of froze at that time because he knew who they were talking about. It was me. And they said, well, we're probably going to have to do bilateral AKs. And my dad knew exactly what they're talking about because this was a proposed thing that the doctors had said at the time. You can Imagine when that news got to my mother, you know, no means on for her. And, you know, a lot of people were saying different things at the time. And that's when my mother went out onto the quest against what everybody had told her and said that, we've got to find a solution. I've got to be able to do that. And that's when she came in contact with Dr. Lessovoi for the first time. That's when we initially met.

So, yeah, I wanted to ask, how did she find you?

Yellow Pages? I have no idea.

I didn't know if she knew you or, you know, how my husband found the doc, because all the doctors were like, no, no, no, you've got a 1% chance of saving your leg. We're going to amputate it. My husband googled limb salvage. He just googled limb salvage and found a doctor that specialized in trauma. So I was very curious as how to. How she found you.

I kind of found out a little bit, just actually last five or six years, that there was a surgeon at the hospital where Cliff was that evidently knew the kind of work that I did and suggested it, possibly because every time I see him, I see him in the synagogue on the high holy days, actually. And he said, you know, I was the one that got Cliff to you somehow. And I said, wow, that's interesting. I don't think I ever told you that. Just mention that. I think that's what happened. And he probably gave Mrs. Meyl my name, and she somehow found me at UCLA and that was it. Then she started calling me.

What did you think when she started calling you? What did she say? Like, they want to take my son's legs.

Please help me. Yeah. She said, well, my son's been in this bad electrical injury, and they've done a bunch of procedures on him already on his back and on the back of his scalp and skull and so on and so forth, which later on we revised. And they say that they can't save his legs. And it's not an uncommon thing in these kind of electrical injuries where the power, just like Cliff said, the energy of the electrical incident exits somewhere and sometimes in a couple of places. And the knees are big areas. Specifically, if. If he slid down and was in contact with the. With the ground, it probably, you know, found a point of least resistance. And so the energy went out there and just blew out his knees.

So is that like a. I don't know, is that a. Like a good thing? What if it went up and exited somewhere? I'm Thinking other. Yeah, yeah.

Why?

Because this. This amount of electrical energy is what, two, three times what they use in the electric chair.

You are kidding. So this is really hitting. You know, my. My brother sentenced to death row in Texas. So as you're telling me this, I'm like, he is? Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. And so the more I get to talking to you and know you, I'm like, we were really destined to meet. So just knowing that. But when you're describing what it does, like the fact that you fell to your knees was probably maybe what saved your life.

Yeah, yeah. Because the energy then was dissipated that way, I think. I don't know exactly. But these days in the electric chair, there are all these points of contact, so everything stays horribly inside, and especially with this cap on. And I haven't studied it, nor do I want to, but anyhow, so his. His knees were blown out for one reason or another. And his mother called me and said that her son was in this hospital. They were going to take his legs off above the knee, both sides, the following day or the next day. And I said, well, I don't work there. I mean, I'm at ucla and I can't do anything for your son. I said, well, can't you come down? Well, I can't really come down to where he was.

And there's a lot of red tape that you have as a doctor when you're at one hospital. I know, because we had to cut through a lot of red tape from me being in the ICU and to get me to Cedars. And I just want to go back to one thing. The amputation above the knee is so much more drastic than below the knee because of the use of the. Of the joint. It's. I don't know. I get many people that I have met that are able to walk and do things like you do with amputations that are above the knee.

Yes. Above the knee, as you say, are difficult or much more difficult.

Much more difficult, yeah.

Below the knee, mid tibia, the mid. Lower leg, sure, it's a problem, but it's not as bad as above the knee. And there are. Well, there are men and women who adapt to almost anything. I mean, look at these poor young men and young women coming back from Afghanistan. My God, just blown up all over the place. And they have smiles on their faces, and they've adapted, and it's fantastic. And it's probably because of people like you who give them inspiration and guidance and hope and their families. It's just fantastic.

Well, I think it's people like you and doctors like you. I mean, just to see the both of you together with what you've been through over the years, it just. I know that every time I see the doctor that saved my leg, I'm just thinking about it makes me cry, because it's just that you didn't give up on him.

Actually, it was his mom where I

got to meet you. Where's your mom?

When.

Yeah, and when he said no is inverted to on to O, which is really cool. I hadn't heard that before. It was really good. So I essentially said I couldn't go there. And so she called back and she was crying, and I mean, you know, what are you going to do? So I said, well, I'll come down and I'll look at him, but I can't do anything there. So I went down and I said, well, you know, maybe we can do something. But the doctors there were very resistant, and they didn't want him to leave. They had him on the schedule to do the above knee amputations and so on and so forth. And so with some persistence and a little bit of, I would say, roughness on my part and on Mrs. Midle's part, we're able to get him transferred to UCLA. Basically, I told him, listen, let me have a try. You know, I mean, if I fail, we'll send them back and you can take his legs off. I mean, if it makes you happy, go for it. So we were able to get him back to UCLA with a couple of procedures. We were able to, you know, save his legs. I mean, it was basically it.

Well, a couple of procedures. How many surgeries in total, or have you lost count by now?

I don't know.

I count every one of mine.

It's been a lot. It was. I think I had, like, 13 procedures just within that short time frame of about three weeks. And then when Dr. Lessamoy did his procedure, the flaps, you know, that was another one. And then I had other procedures, so they.

Flaps. I know what that means because I've had a muscle flap. It's pretty crazy. A lot of people might not know what that means. Can you explain what flap means? Like, just so people get an idea of what you have gone through, like the reconstruction of your legs.

Right.

So I think that, you know, talking about how that whole process worked, going Back to what Dr. Lessnoy said, how he went to the hospital. So that was a massive point for me in my rehabilitation because of the fact that, you know, a lot of us go through various different types of adverse situations in our lives. As we talked before, it could be traumatic or a split second, or it could be something that we're preparing for, whether it's goals or whatever it may be in life. But I can tell you, as you know better than anybody else, is that when your back is up against the wall and you have zero hope at all and you just want to throw in the towel and you believe that you are probably not going to survive through this, when somebody enters your life like Dr. Lessamoy did for me, it's amazing what it does. I remember that I didn't understand too much what was happening because, like I mentioned, my mom was driving the bus. I remember very clearly three or four days out of those three weeks, I was going in and out of surgery and things like that. But they said that my mom said that somebody special is going to come take a look at your legs. So here I was in this bed, and you can imagine that, okay, there's these doctors that are going to come in and all that. So Dr. Lesevoy walks into the room, and so I'm very perceptive. And one of the reasons was why? Because you can imagine that it hurts and you don't want to have anything done. I had a cast all the way from my hips down to my ankles at the time because they wanted to really encapsulate the risk of having an infection. So I knew that if they're going to look at the legs, definitely that was going to happen. But I think the unique part and the more of the miraculous part about the entire story is when Dr. Lessevoy walked in and how I perceived that. And when he walked in, I was thinking, okay, I was waiting for a doctor. And Dr. Lesevoy walks in. And I can remember very clearly he acknowledges my mother because he had met my mom and everybody else was to the wayside. But he came and walked up to me and put his hand on my shoulder, and he says, highcliffe, I'm now lessavoi, not Dr. Lessavoi or anything like that. And he came in with the jeans and the cowboy boots, which is his signature. And. But the thing about it is, is that where that all goes is that when your back is up against the wall and you have zero hope, and somebody comes and just lights that little bit of flame of hope in your heart, I knew at that standpoint when he put that hand on my shoulder, that maybe, just maybe, he was going to make a change and make a difference for me. So I took everything that I have and just laid it out in all the trust to Dr. Lessavoy. Whatever he was going to do, he was the magician. And so I was going to lay all that trust. And I remember he says, you know, whatever you do, don't look down. Kind of like. And of course, I'm really bad in instructions. And so I looked down, and two significant things happened. First of all, I still have that smell in my nose today, what it smells like of the burned flesh.

That's interesting.

And I still have that. I still have my boots and jeans, by the way, in this suitcase that still smell like that. But the other thing that I remember that when that I really hit home was I realized that I was never under any circumstance going to be the same kid as I was before. The days of being able to run on the beach, play sports, wear board shorts and flip flops, that was completely out of the equation. I was going to have to now be a new person, if I even was going to be able to do that. But like I mentioned before, it's just the little flames of hope that somebody can provide that can make a major difference and help us be able to channel our ways through or provide a guidance through these extremely difficult times that we have no skill set or training at all on how to go through. You know, most of the time, you just want to give up. You know, a lot of people in the audience can probably relate to that, where you think that there's nothing that's going to work. I just want to throw in the towel. But it's amazing how people can provide hope. And that's what Dr. Lessavoi did for me, is provided that hope. And that was the starting point right there. He did all the. A lot of the mechanical stuff, but it was not just that one ignition of flame. There were many ignitions that our relationship had before the surgery and after the surgery that made a huge difference in terms of what I was going to learn and how I was going to take those learning skills and make them into accomplishments.

That hope I love, that just tiny little flicker of hope can carry you through so much. And I could just see when you were describing how he walked in and just by putting his hand on your shoulder, how you so vividly remember that, how that gave you hope. Shortly after, when you did realize, I'm never going to be the same kid again in the hospital, did you start to spiral down at all into a depression or start to. What kept you from just crashing down and getting back up? Was it the hope was it things that, you know.

Yeah, it was a sequence. I mean, a lot of people go through traumatic experiences. You know, you go through those stages of grievance where you're really angry at what happened. Dreams and dreams, day after day, night after night, where I would dream about running on the beach, and then you wake up to the reality. But after the surgery, that we could talk about the actual process of it. There was a point where that spiral was happening pretty quick. I just didn't really see how I was going to. The surgery was done. I think the biggest part behind performing the surgery was being able to save the legs. Was I ever going to be able to run or do anything like that, or walk? That is something that we didn't really look at initially. You always dream and hope about it. But it was Dr. Lessenboy being able to recognize and develop that kinship that we had, where he created these various different points of hope that I look at it, and I call that where I was going through rehabilitation. And he essentially identified that I was going through the process. My mom was out there with wands, you know, trying to do the, you know, the healing, because she is from the 1980s, you know, and it was all about doing all that.

Hey, whatever works. I mean, look, I was doing. I was trying everything. I'm like. I went to one guy who was pouring oil on my head. I was like, okay.

Oh, my mom had tiles underneath my bed that were crystal tiles, you know? Yes.

Yeah. Like, whatever works. Like, bring it. Bring on the magic.

I remember one day. I don't know if Dr. Lessenberg remembers this. I was in the room, obviously in my hospital room. I couldn't move at all. And here's my mom with these wands. And so you see, I love your mom. UCLA is a teaching hospital. So I can hear because you develop that. That. That ear. You can hear what people are doing down the hall, and you can smell, and your senses are just alert like crazy. And, oh, here it is. Dr. Lessenboy is doing his rounds. I could hear everybody coming. And now the next case we have Cliff Meidl, and he's got all the students there, and he, like, is walking into the room, and then he's, like, backwards, because here's my mom, you know, he's got the blue wand out, you

know, doing over the knees.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I do remember after the procedures, and he was really healing nicely, but we had to get into his brain also. And rehab is probably. Probably more difficult than the surgery because you have to have the inner Strength, inner fortitude, the inner gumption to really get going and get off your ass and stuff. And. And, you know, he was 20 years old, and. And I was a couple of years older, but maybe 25 years older. And the whole point was, is that he seemed like he was depressed and just down, not like he is today, which is unbelievable, man. Just for a little period of time. And I kind of felt that he needed to have a little stimulant, a little emotional boost to kick him in the ass, to really say, come on, now, everybody's done their job. Everybody wants you to succeed. Now you have to do it yourself. You really have to do it yourself. And he did. And he did.

Yeah. He said, I've done my 50%. You're going to have to come up with the rest. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm really bad at math. What's this guy talking about? You know? And it was. I think what Dr. Lessel was really leaning into was, you know, the will, the determination, the belief process, and that vision to be able to visualize that you're going to get out of this. You just got to be able to drive up that will and determination and get through all those different barriers. And that is where the huge learning element of it was for me, in terms of you're going through your stages of grievance, anger, depression, denial. You get to this fork, I always like to call it the fork in the road, which is the acceptance part. You got to accept who you are, and in order to make those next step, you got to be able to make that acceptance and be able to get beyond that hurdle. And that's what Dr. Lesselboy had done for me, and that was what that 50% was. And he challenged me that if you want to leave the hospital, you're going to need to get from the bed into a wheelchair. And that is when the music stopped right there. I thought to myself, how am I possibly going to be able to accomplish that? But then I learned that through the help of Dr. Lessenboy, my mother, the encouragement for the physical therapists that were there. Ultimately, I think it was like the third week into this, I'm standing, and I got a photograph of that. I'm standing at these parallel bars, and I've got this linebacker PT guy holding me up 90% of my body weight. But it was a huge segment in terms of being able to break the barriers and pass through that acceptance phase, where I learned that I took that one small little step and then back into the bed. And going up on the incline boards and things like that, and then some steps. Took a few going backwards, but ultimately, after going through, walking down the 20ft and all the way back, I learned a lot going through life. You just can't go from A to Z and accomplish goals like that. It is all about the micro steps. And that whole standpoint took me not only through that element of it, but it taught me not only to believe in myself, but also be able to take those steps and other things. I figured that if I can walk, I can go to college. And then, you know, from going through school, I was able to apply that in other elements of life as well.

I think it's amazing that you were there to give him good, that you were aware enough to see that, oh, he's. He needs some help. He needs a little bit of a kick in the butt to get him out of this hospital bed. And that you were there for that, but also that you focused. That both of you focused on, okay, first things first, we got to save the legs. You weren't focused on, I got to run again. You were like, I just got to save my leg. Then you're like, I just got to be able to stand up. I just have to be able to get in a wheelchair. I just. You just took it one step at a time. And it was these micro. Like you said, these little micro steps. And I think that it's easy to get discouraged. I would have thought about running marathons again when I was stuck in the hospital bed. I'd probably still be in the hospital bed. So I think it's good to break it down into those micro steps and one day at a time.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, climbing up a sand dune. You go up a little bit, you slide back down, you go up some more. Eventually you get to the top. If you have the will. If you have the will. And he had the will, and he had the inner fortitude, the genes that his parents gave him, and the ability to look forward, to see what was going to happen. The interesting thing is that after all of this, putting the stitches in, that's the easy part. The hard part is what he had, what he had to do. It was easy for me on my part, doing what we did, but the amount of success that he has accomplished is because of what's inside. And that's something that you deal with a lot, not just personally, but with helping people and your inspirational stuff. The interesting thing is that I lost track of him for about 10 years after this period and in 1996, I'm at home on a Saturday or Sunday, and the phone rings a couple times. Different people are calling me, and they say, you got to turn on NBC News or something. There's a guy there who's an Olympian who's. Who's in the Atlanta Olympics and is being interviewed and said that, you know, you saved his legs, you saved his life. I didn't save his life, but you inspired him and so on and so forth. He's now an Olympian. It's unbelievable. And that's Cliff middle. I lost track of him for 10 years. And just think of what he did in 10 years, getting from. From a smoldering piece of meat, essentially, to a person flat on his back to parallel bars, to a wheelchair, to crutches, to PT, to all of this stuff, and in 10 years, becomes an Olympian. Now, granted, he's not a sprinter, but his brother, who was inspirational in inspiring him, also said, cliff, listen, you got other things you could work on. Your chest, your. Your upper body and so on and so forth. I mean, he'll never get as big as me, but. I'm kidding. But the man became an Olympian, an Olympian kayaker. And aside from that. So from that time on, from the Atlanta Olympics, we touched base and we became friends, good friends. And then later on, he obviously made the Olympic team again.

That's incredible.

In Sydney for the Sydney Olympics. It was in 2000, and I don't know if you've seen. Well, I'm sure you have, but everybody's seen the opening ceremonies, you know, at the Olympics. And the US team has the largest contingency of athletes, 600 of them, and they all vote for who's going to carry the flag. Bingo. Cliff Meyer. Walking. Walking around at the opening ceremony was Karen Affleck.

My God, how did that feel to carry that flag with 200 million million?

Well, there were. I mean, on television, more billion, I thought a billion broadcasted around the globe and all that.

Yeah, but I get the choices.

I mean, I can only imagine the energy you felt.

Yeah.

From that.

Well, it was a. I mean, at that time, you know, going back, you know, but one has to understand, you know, you got to unwind the tape that 10 years. There was a lot that happened in that 10 years. I never, ever laying in a hospital bed. If you would have told me that, you know, I was ever going to be able to walk again, I would have said, you're completely crazy. And if you would have said, I would have gone to the Olympic Games, I would have said, you're speaking about a different person because you don't visualize these things, but things can happen, providing that you're persistent and you're always looking for opportunity. And I think one thing led to another. As Dr. Less said, my brother was very inspirational part of it. He basically said that, listen, you can't use your lower legs, use the tools that God gave you, and quit worrying about what you don't have. Because when you're going through adversity, you're looking in the mirror and you're seeing something a lot different than what somebody else is seeing. And it's amazing how people can inspire you because a lot of times you can become blinded by some of the things that are around you. And I was just so focused on what I didn't have.

I did the same. All I did, I was just, I can't run again. I can't run again.

You can't go to the beach. You can't be walking in board shorts. You can't have your shirt off and all that because you've got these impairments. But my brother was very inspirational. And I did not want to go down to this canoe club in Redondo beach, locally here in Los Angeles. And he said, just come on down. It's an all upper body sport. You could get into it. I tried it once before, a little bit, but, you know, he really pushed. A lot of times we don't want to be pushed, but sometimes we need to be pushed. And he really got me down there. And it is kind of an amazing thing. I look back and I take that 30,000 foot approach and I say, you know, what actually did that provide for me? Well, I got into great physical shape. Oops. I met a lot of people out there at the club and all that. But I think that one of the most important elements of it, first of all, you're accepted and you're not judged at all for what you have, because, you know, you go down there and if you want to be the best, there's expectations that are laid down there. And I didn't start off by wanting to be the best battler. I just wanted to go to a place where people could accept me. And this became a channel for me to be able to channel all that negative energy and turn it into something positive. So from starting off as a guppy paddler, I became better and better every year and so on and so forth. And it became just a great avenue for me to be able to go someplace that would light the fire within that would just make me feel good about myself. I would feel accomplished. And then many, many, many years later and many dreams and failures. You know, I found myself walking into the opening ceremonies in Atlanta, and it was like I was a young kid. I remember in seventh grade, I used to run down the ramp dreaming about competing in a large arena. Never knew what it was. I didn't even believe that I would be capable of it. And then here I was. That dream came true, walking into the opening ceremonies in Atlanta. So it's one of those things where, you know, a lot of times we don't realize what we can accomplish, but it's all about taking those micro bikes. And that's kind of one of the big stories of my life. I'm all about completeness. Whether it's paddling in a kayak, doing sprint kayaking, or working at work or cutting the lawn, even simple things, I'm all about completing the task. And I think that that has helped out a lot. Everything's got to be 100%. You got to have 100% of your energy into it, and you got to have 100% of your completion. And that is what kind of moves you along the spectrum. And then I remember one of my coaches down at the club, you know, he pulled me to the side. He noticed I was becoming frustrated, you know, because the better you get, the more you realize that's at play. And he had told me that. He said, listen, Cliff, I can teach anybody technique, but what I cannot teach is intensity. And he says, I could see it in your eyes that you really wanted, and I think that really got me to really believe in, ok, what is the harm of being able to go after it 100%? Because a lot of times we worry too much about failure. But I figured that, worst case scenario, I get really fit and meet a lot of friends. And I was able to get into a sport that really fostered all of that. And they had mentors, and then there was other Olympians that were in it that really helped out dramatically, being able to set the pattern for me and everything like that. So I'm very thankful for that.

I love all that you shared. So it's really having that spark of hope, getting into acceptance, focusing on what you can do instead of what you can't, and having supportive people around you. I mean, you have a team around you to support you, and then really having a purpose, someplace to go. And I think we all want to feel accepted. We all want to be a part of. We all want to be seen but did you have a problem? Because I really, for a while, struggled with all my scars. I mean, I used to be a fitness model. Now all of a sudden, my leg is completely deformed. My legs scarred up from the hip down. So I really had, like. It took a lot to get an acceptance because I hated the way that I looked. I hated the way that my leg didn't work properly anymore and the pain it gave me. Did you have a hard time accepting all of your scars and the way that you looked? I know it's a little different. I like scars on guys. My first boyfriend had a scar on his face, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. You know, it's a little bit different. Like, guys can kind of pull it off a little bit differently than girl. I mean, I don't know. I think that's kind of changing, especially now with social media and scars being so accepted. I completely accept by now, but that was hard for me. Did you have a hard time with that?

Oh, most definitely. There was a harbored shame for the longest time until I finally realized that I was fitter than a lot of people. And I was developed in all of that stuff through sport and athletics and everything and doing all of that stuff that prepared me for the sport. So it took a lot of. And even today, you still. I still deal with it. You take off your shirt and things like that, and, you know, you can always be judged by, you know, what your back looks like and especially with your legs. But, you know, you learn over time that, you know, it's a part of you and it's the reason why, who I am today and. But that's a learned thing. It took 35 years to get through that. It's not something that is like a light bulb where it turns on or off.

Thank you for sharing that. That it took that. That it took a lot of time. It took. I mean, I used to try to drink my shame away. I would try to work it away. I'd try to shop it away. I mean, shame is horrible, and it does take time, and I appreciate you sharing that you had that and that it took time to work through that. What do you think are some of the things that helped you work through that?

I think being able to accept the accomplishment that had happened for me at the time. You know, you always want to go out there and do the best that you can, but every once in a while, you got to turn around and smell the roses. You got to scrutinize how well you're Doing and things like that. And I think that for me, it took a real realization that I think I'm judging myself more than other people are judging me. And I had to really come to grips with that, that what they're seeing is something different. Like my brother, you know, what he saw in me at the time. But the thing about it is, is that it's. It's, you know, I judge myself much more difficult than other people would. Would judge me. But, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that I can't change anything. I can't persuade anybody to believe any different in me. I just got to be the best that I can be. And it is hard, very difficult, because it's easy for me to say that. But if you actually go through it like you had gone through it as well, you know what. Exactly. What I'm saying is it takes a long time and it takes a lot of self training to be able to get through that part, because it's difficult. I mean, being able to cope with all those stages of grievance, the shame, all of that goes with it. Because a lot of times you wonder, you know, what if. What would I have been like? And I even asked myself, and I talk about that recently, you know, what would I. Who would have I've been. If I wasn't in this accident, you know, what would Cliff might have be like today? And things like that. And you know, because there's a lot of things you can't do, but then there's also a lot of things that I can do. I learned how to use my mind more and I learned how to tap into areas that I would never even believe that I had. Yeah. When it comes to going through adversity.

And now you're inspiring so many people.

Yeah. Just to jump in a little bit. Whatever he accomplished so far, he would have accomplished regardless of his accident. Because in my mind anyhow, I'm not great a judge of people. But when you see somebody that has the inner fortitude to succeed and the gumption, as we said before, to succeed and has the genetic makeup to a certain extent to succeed also and really wants to do it, then he would succeed at whatever he did, just like you have. It's exactly the same kind of situation. Sure, there are lots of hurdles that are put in front of all of us, no matter what role we have in life. But both of you, I think, need to really be congratulated on your. But you would have succeeded anyhow, in my opinion, both of you, because you have similar Stories. You have similar situations in life that have challenged you, and the challenge is really what specifically makes you stronger. You wouldn't have the challenge. We see people all the time who have the brain power and people have given them opportunities, and yet they don't succeed. Well, why don't they succeed? Well, there's something there. There's some click up there that that makes you succeed. You personally, Amberly, and you, Cliff specifically,

I think you have to really want it. And I had to believe in something that was so much bigger than me, that it wasn't just about me that you know. And thank goodness for me. I had two daughters and a husband that I was like, well, wait a minute. I want to show them an example of resilience, not victim. I want to be the victor of my life. But the way that you believed, he got some hope from you. My Dr. Wiss. I don't know if you know Dr. Don Wiss and Dr. Sherman. Randy Sherman. Who?

Randy I know very well.

Oh, he's the muscle flaps and skin grafts. He is a character.

He's a very close friend.

I love him. So I have to tell you a quick story. So I broke some titanium in my leg, and they had to do a crazy surgery. It was a 10 hour surgery, and it took so long that they had to go back. They had to put a wound back on it, and then two days later had to go back and close it up. And Dr. Sherman came in and he was laughing. He said, I've never seen Dr. Wiss sweat so much in his life. He had sweat coming down trying to get that rot. And I said, well, thanks for making fun of him. I was like, he saved my leg. But he is a character.

Randy's a great guy. We do very similar things. I mean, you could have done this.

I'm sure you are so. But despite your luminous accomplishments, you're very humble. I mean, you are just. You're incredible. And there are not many people that can perform miracles like you. So I just really want to acknowledge you for this.

Trust me, it's not miracles. It's just hard work. And I think it was a miracle I got through medical school. I was not definitely the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I worked harder than anybody.

Did you have that grit that has a lot of. That says a lot. What Dr. Lasso just said is the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That when you look at your parents, how hard they work, I can guarantee you I was not the sharpest tack. But it's all about working hard and just getting it done and accomplishing, and that's what gets us. If you can outwork the person next to you, then you've done your job. I remember one Olympian that I looked up to a lot, Greg Barton, he had some writings, and he said that if you just take five minutes after you're done with your workout, this is a workout analogy that could be plastered in kind of umbrella, door, everything. But if you take that five minutes and peel yourself away at the end of a workout where everybody goes in and you spend the five minutes working on technique and all that, imagine what it's like when you get to the competition and you have hours and hours and hours of extra preparation, and that's what it's all about, is being able to work hard and break down those barriers. And I think, you know, my folks had the work ethic, and my brother and I instilled it, and I think that was a big part of being able to get through it. The other thing is, as my mom always used to say, well, I guess you can't kill a weed, right? You're here for. For a reason.

That is so funny. My husband always says, calgon won't even take it like. Or what is the weed killer? Is it like Roundup? Whatever it is, he's like, won't kill you. You're like a weed. Yeah. He said, God just keeps spitting you back out.

That's.

We've had to develop a little bit of sense of humor since all these. Yeah. But, yeah, that grit, that working hard applies to everything, whether it's getting through surgeries or. Or if you're an entrepreneur or. We were talking about before we started recording how this podcast is top 1% podcasts. And I said, that's not because it's the best. It's because I work so dang hard, and I've gotten an episode out every single week. And that's what Angela Duckworth says about grit. It's. It's not necessarily your title. It's not necessarily your money or your looks. It's about how hard you're willing to work.

Yeah. My coach, you saw, was telling me that one of my coaches, he says, listen, if there's nothing comfortable about racing, you know, it's going to be painful preparing for it, doing all the training, all that. If you want comfort, get yourself a sofa and a remote controller, you're in the wrong sport. I think that applies with life. There's nothing comfortable about doing anything. You got to hammer through it and work through Everything. And then you just develop a tolerance for it, you know, I think that's what it is. Yeah.

So I would like to ask you, like, how do you balance or find some kind of alignment between that grit and working really hard and then giving yourself the grace to rest and recover? Because I know you were saying you still have pain, and pain can be draining. It can get so bad where it gives me brain fog, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't think straight. You know, a couple of weeks ago, I was back on my Canadian crutches, which is a whole mind messes with my head. Like, I'm on these crutches again. I don't want to be on these crutches. I want to be running around the block and not. But it's like that acceptance thing. But then that's when I've had to learn the hard way, like when to rest and. Because as an athlete, I don't know if you were taught this, but for me, as an athlete, I was taught resting means quitting. You don't quit. You just keep going, grind it, hustle. As a dancer, I was taught, if you quit, we'll just get your understudy to take your part. And so I had a really hard time with resting and giving myself that grace. How do you find that balance? To just recover and rest and to listen to your body?

I mean, it's. I mean, for years, exactly what you said. It's like a freight train going forward. I remember after I had my accident, one of the requirements that the insurance company had as well, you got to see a psychiatrist, you know, and see how Cliff is doing and how is he managing all this now? I remember walking out of that office and, you know, he had talked to my mother, and he just said, just let the train go. Hey, you know, just don't disrupt the train right now. Which is great, you know, but at the end of the day, it's like I mentioned before, every once in a while, you've got to stop and smell the roses. And I've learned that that's part of the management process now especially. Unfortunately, there's something that we can't avoid is getting older. We always think that we're in our 20s and our 30s, but, you know, the mind behaves that way, but the body just. It just does. You know, we just can't do what we used to do. And I have a tendency to think that, you know, you're still competing all the time, you know, and. And I've learned that, you have to take a couple of steps back because with that extra rest, you're always better off being a little bit more rested than over training. And if you can apply that into life that, you know, sometimes it's important to take a couple of qualified steps back and be able to analyze and take that rest. And I think that's important.

There are a lot of people that can't do that. You know, there are a lot of people that are overachievers that are just going 120 miles an hour and they eventually will burn out. And so I think your concept and your concept of resting, there's nothing wrong with resting. You're not weak if you have some time to rest. We all need our brains to rest, let alone our bodies to rest. And so, and it's not, it's not a weak point, it's a strong point. I think if you can understand that you are over compensating or you are over training.

It's a lot about listening to your body too. There's something like the crutches. You're listening really well because now you're having to fall back onto that. And it's all about the pain management, being able to deal with that. And I think that as we get, you know, more involved or after a long longer period of time after our accident, we know what we can and what we can't do and how to push and when not to push. And I think it's a careful balance.

But those are also examples of, and ideals, I think, for other people in other walks of life and the intellectual and the scientific and the artistic world. You see these pictures of Picasso just standing in front of a blank canvas. You know, you wonder what's going on through his mind. Well, if he was worried about his wife or his finances or his health or something at that time, you know, he wouldn't. Well, maybe that's how he came up.

Maybe that is.

But scientists that are working on projects and that are going 247 for two days, three days without sleep, that's not good. People who, who write literature, we all have to rest. And it's not, it's not a sign of weakness. It's just not a sign of weakness.

I think it helps to hear it from someone highly respectable that I'm like, it's not a sign of weakness. Maybe that should be my new mantra. It's a sign of strength, just like it is a vulnerability leads us to our strength. Resting.

Exactly.

Just like sleep charges your batteries and without it you're just Going to drain them all the way down.

Now, I have to agree. I might overdo it some. And I think. I don't think that a lot of rest is necessarily more strength.

Yeah, that's true.

Sometimes you can overdo it. And, you know, ball games come on tv. I want to watch three, four a day. Saturday or Sunday is really good.

Yeah, it's good to have that self awareness check, check.

Exactly.

And then to really know what you value most, what your intentions are, what your priorities are. Like last night, there's this new show. I don't hardly ever watch tv, and it's one show that I like and it's on Sunday nights. And I could hear that my husband was watching it downstairs. But I had some deadlines due, so I was like, no, I'm going to stay up here. I'm going to get these deadlines. I'll catch it on Netflix another time,

you know, but testing you by turning up the volume.

Yeah. He's like, oh, this is really good.

You're missing it.

Yeah, But I'd love to see the friendship that you have developed. I actually reached out to my doctor, Dr. Wiss, and Dr. Sherman's actually in my book as well. But he was the first person that I asked to read my manuscript. And I remember taking it to his office and saying, is this okay if I write about you? He's like, really a hero in my eyes. And I remember that night, staying awake all night, going, oh, my gosh, he's going to read this. And he's a writer. I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe he's going to read it. But he liked it so much, he actually even gave me a little quote that I could put on the book. But doctors like you are just your heroes in the world. And you've changed Cliff's life. And through that, you're changing so many people's lives because of the inspiration and the hope that you have given him. So thank you for all that you have done and all that you continue to do to change people's lives.

Thank you. But to make the priorities really right, in my opinion. That's just my opinion. We go into medicine, we go into surgery because we really love it. We really love it and we think it and we kind of reinvent things as we're going. Specifically in plastic and reconstructive surgery.

How many years have you been doing plastic and reconstruction?

Since I finished my training now, a little over 40 years. But the point is that every day is a new day. Every case is a new challenge. And every operation, I think, as I go through various things, I think I can make it better or I can do it differently than what previous people have written about, and so on and so forth. So we maybe get the accolades, like Dr. Wiss and Dr. Sherman, who are both great doctors, but we get our kick out of doing what we do. Yeah, it's fantastic. Thank you. When we get thank yous. But not every single case is a thank you. Trust me. Trust me. We're dealing with very different personalities, very different expectations, very different situations, both intraoperatively, preoperatively, and postoperatively. But it's that challenge that we have. He has this challenge every day of getting up, bending his not functional knees, thinking what the future is going to be. He's still a very young man. We're going to do more surgical intervention by other experts who do artificial knees and things of that sort, which is definitely something in the future for him. He still limps, as you can see. He can't run very well, but he's accommodated to it. But what I'm saying is that we all have our situations where we have to try to overcome. You have overcome it. He has overcome it. We all have overcome.

How did you overcome a situation where a surgery has not gone as well?

I look back and try to figure out how it went wrong. Did I do something wrong? Did the tissues.

You're amazing.

No, the tissues that we were working with just didn't heal as well. And we all try to. All of us that are surgeons, no matter what, dentists, I mean, psychiatrists, I mean, they're dealing with surgery of the brain, with emotional surgery of the brain. Think how difficult that is. I mean, we cut and sew and we can see what we're doing. And we put stitches in. The stitches either stay there or they don't stay there. They're either too tight or too loose or whatever. Think of psychiatrists, the difficulties that they have. And all different specialties have their own problems. And nothing is perfect. Nothing is perfect, but it's. Nothing's perfect.

Taking a look at what you can do, what you can improve, what you can change. Not a lot of people want to do that. They want to put the blame on someone else, or they don't want to take accountability. They don't want to accept. And I think that's huge. And with anything that you're doing in life, whether it's surgery or recovery or anything, is like taking a look at what you can do better. So that's Incredible.

I'm thinking what both of you do now, specifically, he goes around the country giving inspirational speeches, inspires people in corporations and so on and so forth from his example and his storytelling. And I don't mean story in a negative way. I mean in a very positive way of what he's been through. And you do it on a weekly basis.

My God.

And our number one in all podcasts in the US or in the world, whatever. I mean, just think of the accomplishments and the people that you don't even know you have lit a light under, lit a fire under. And this is the fire within that Cliff talks about. And it's definitely a fire within. You have that fire. I mean, anybody that talks to you for a minute can see it and can feel that warmth, if not that heat. And that's a fantastic thing. That's something that you have.

Wow.

Never give up.

Can I stay here all day? I like that. I'm going to tell my husband. Can you feel the heat? I love it. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Y' all are amazing. The fire within. We all have it. Cliff, some last closing words. How would you tell somebody to get that fire within really lit up if they're feeling a little dim?

I think that one of the most important things is you have to believe in yourself. No matter what, how dire the situation is, believe that there is some hope that you can get through this adversity. And I think that's the whole process, is trust in yourself. You got to love yourself and believe in yourself that you'll be able to get through it. A lot of times, you know, we can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. It just seems like it's going to be the end of the world and things like that. But take it day by day, step by step, and you'll ultimately be able to walk yourself right out of it, not only get through that adversity, but you'll be able to springboard yourself to future success. So it's all about the belief, the hard work, and the determination. You can get through almost anything you want. It's all from the neck up.

I love that. And to have friends, amazing friends. Thank you.

Yeah. I give lots of lectures to medical students and to surgeons, and I have one PowerPoint that I use, and it's, we have horses here. And all my life I've been with horses. And I told Cliff this story. It's really interesting. A number of years ago, when I lived in a different area, I was riding my horse, and I was Being a little down, I was a little contemplative. And it's in this area called the Amundsen Ranch, which is in the West Valley. And I'm running by myself, and I happen to have one of these little cameras, little Coolpix cameras that just came out. And I'm riding, and I see in this far distance on this hill, a whole bunch of sheep. It's fantastic. I mean, out here in Southern California, kind of in an area you wouldn't expect it. And I took a picture of these sheep, and as I got closer with my horse, very quietly, I took another picture. And I've never ridden through a whole herd of sheep, but as you ride very slowly, quietly on your horse, the sheep kind of just separate, and you continue to ride through them, and then they get back, and then you're gone. But later on, I had those films developed, and it's very interesting because I could see the sheep very far out. And then as I got closer, the sheep were closer and closer. And the closest picture that I got was fascinating from the same frames, was that inside this whole group of sheep was one black sheep right in the middle of this group of white sheep. And I told my medical students and I tell other people, don't be one of these guys. Be that guy. Be that black sheep. Stick out and be your own individual thing. That's exactly what Cliff has done. That's exactly what you have done. You have been your own individual person. You haven't gone with all the other sheep and do the same thing. The same thing. You've done your own thing, and you've been successful, and success will breed that to you and to others that you contact. That black sheep will turn some of those. And I don't mean this in any negative way, black, white, but will infect all those other sheep, hopefully, by being an individual.

I love that. Yeah. I think that people want authenticity. They want.

Exactly.

They want to see you not exactly a mold, you know, trying to be like everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. And I think where you're talking about is where our horse is, right over there.

Bingo.

Yeah. And I love you guys. If you're listening, head over to YouTube and you'll see how amazing they are. We're sitting up here, got an ocean view. We can see that. I drove up this windy road to get here. It's like, where am I going?

Topanga, California.

Yep. And Topanga. And it just feels like you're in an oasis. So thank you for having me to your home and dropping some major inspiration and Just for the friendship that you guys have and the inspiration and the miracles that you perform, it's been such an honor to get to talk with you. I would love for people to be able to reach you, get to see your work. So, first of all, where can people find you?

They can go to cliffmetal.com and I have a website there. They can contact me on the website. Yeah.

And where can they hear you speak? Do you have some speaking engagements up on your site, or.

No, I don't have any speaking engagements up on the site, but usually, typically quickly, they just send me an email to the website. I'll respond promptly and set something up.

Okay, good, good. I just want to. Yeah, I want people to be able to. To reach out to you, and then where can people find.

That's lessavoidplasticsurgery.com.

yeah.

Dr. Malcolm Lessavoy, and me and Cliff, we have a really nice talk that we do together that lasts about 45 minutes or so for inspirational and scientific. And we gave one of our talks at the Grand Rans at the UCLA Department of Surgery was very much. We didn't videotape it, but we're gonna.

Yeah, I saw a picture, though. I was Google stalking you guys, and I saw. I saw. I saw pictures and. Yeah, yeah. And I really got. Yeah. And I looked at all your work. You do some beautiful work in Beverly Hills as well. I'm almost 50, so I was like, oh, wow, that looks good. So, yeah, your work is amazing. So, yeah, y', all, please reach out. Thanks for tuning in to the show. Thank you guys for being here. Yeah, thank you.