Get ready friends, because this episode of The Amberly Lago Show is one that I genuinely did not want to end. I sat down with the brilliant Jessica Smarro, licensed therapist, life and mindset coach, speaker, and author of the incredible new book In Pursuit. And honestly, I think this conversation is going to hit home for so many of you.
Jessica speaks directly to the high achieving woman who has checked every box, hit every goal, and still quietly wonders why it doesn’t feel like freedom. That’s the woman she wrote this book for. And if I’m being really honest with you, that woman is me sometimes too.
Here’s what I’m still thinking about from our conversation.
If you’re exhausted, it might not be because you’re doing too much
Jessica said if you’re burned out and depleted, there’s a really good chance you’re not doing too little. You’re doing too little of what actually lights you up. How many of us have never even asked ourselves what we want? Not what’s expected of us, not what makes sense on paper, but what we actually want? Jessica shared that when she asks her clients that question, most of them look at her like a deer in headlights. And she’s right. We’ve been so conditioned to look outward and take care of everything and everyone else that going inward feels almost foreign. If that’s you, this episode is your permission slip to start asking the question.
You’re not a problem to be solved. You’re someone to be known.
This might be my favorite thing she said in the entire conversation. So many high achievers walk around treating themselves like a project. Something to be fixed and improved. But Jessica flips that completely on its head. What if there’s nothing to fix? What if instead of constantly problem solving yourself, you just got genuinely curious about who you are? She used this analogy that I loved. You wouldn’t look at a Honda Civic and wonder why it can’t off road in the mountains. That’s not its design. And yet we compare ourselves to everyone around us and wonder why we don’t measure up.
Arrival addiction is real and it’s keeping you stuck
Jessica describes arrival addiction as the belief that the next milestone, the next achievement, is finally going to give you the feeling you’ve been chasing. But here’s the truth she laid out so beautifully: the destination always feels like the journey. If you’ve been grinding and striving from a place of not enough, hitting the goal isn’t going to fix that feeling. The work is learning to feel the way you want to feel now, in the process, not just when you arrive. When you do that, everything changes. The pursuit actually becomes fulfilling instead of just exhausting.
I could have talked to Jessica for hours and I genuinely think I’m going to go back and listen to this one again with a notebook in hand. Her book In Pursuit is exactly what so many of us need right now and I cannot recommend it enough. Grab it on Amazon and let it meet you wherever you are.
About Jessica Smarro
Jessica Smarro is a licensed therapist, life and mindset coach, speaker, and host of the Unblocked Podcast. Drawing from her background in mental health, addiction, and the criminal justice system, she now helps high achieving women break free from invisible prisons like perfectionism, people pleasing, and arrival addiction so they can finally live a life that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside. Her book In Pursuit is available now on Amazon in paperback, hardcover, Kindle, and audible.
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Transcript:
Amberly Lago (00:00)
How did you get into the work that you’re doing and start to even write your book in pursuit?
Jessica Smarro (00:06)
I go back to childhood stuff, right? Like we all have a story and I grew up in a family where I looked around and I was like, this ain’t it. This ain’t it. I had family members who were in and out of jail and prison and a lot of addiction. I always felt like I was in pursuit of something else, right?
Amberly Lago (00:21)
What is the first thing that you suggest for them to do to start to improve their life and spark more joy?
Jessica Smarro (00:29)
If you’re tired and exhausted, it’s not because you’re doing too much. It’s because you’re doing too little of what lights you up. So the idea of when we’re burn out, where you’re like, yeah, there’s a really good chance you are not aligned to what you actually want.
Amberly Lago (00:42)
What they really want, is it journaling? Is it sitting in silence? Is it prayer? Is there anything that you teach them to do to help them with that?
Jessica Smarro (00:51)
In the book, the way I map out the book is the prison, the path, and the pursuit. And in the middle section, in the path, I go through essentially my freedom formula. And one of those is a section called staying with the emotion and learning how to have conversations with your body, learning how to do listening sessions so that, again, if you feel like I’m a floating head, I don’t know my wisdom speaks to me. Yeah, there’s a whole system there where you practice.
Amberly Lago (01:16)
Hey y’all, thank you so much for tuning in to the Amberlee Lago Show. I have been really excited to have this amazing guest on, especially, I don’t know if you’re like me and you’ve ever felt like you’ve hit a goal, you’ve checked all the boxes, you’ve done all the things right, but you still feel like there’s a little something missing. This conversation is definitely for you. She speaks directly to women who’s
high achieving on the outside, but pretty, but quietly on the inside, maybe asking, why doesn’t this feel like freedom? She speaks to that woman, she speaks to me and so selfishly, I have a lot of questions to ask her. She’s a licensed therapist, life and mindset coach, speaker, and the host of the Unblocked Podcast. And she has a new book that I have read and I am so excited to dive in and share it with you today.
⁓ It’s called In Pursuit. Today’s guest is Jessica Samaro. Thank you for being here, Jess.
Jessica Smarro (02:24)
I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for that introduction. I always think it’s fun. Like we should just have people walk around talking about us. Just like, okay, I feel amazing and I’m ready to just chit chat with you about all the things.
Amberly Lago (02:34)
Yeah.
And before we started recording, I was like, I think your book and your message and all you teach through your courses and your coaching and as you speak on stages is so needed right now. ⁓ I recently did a post about, ⁓ asked chat GPT to roast my 2025 year and it was shocking what came up.
And it was like, Amberly taught rest and resilience, but she lived it in the moment while she was traveling across the United States on teleporting from stage to state. And I was like, ⁓ it kind of called me out, but in a good way. And I did a newsletter about it in the post and I had, ⁓ so many people, mostly women actually reach out to me and say,
my goodness, thank you so much because I’ve been checking all the boxes and I feel like I’ve ran a million marathons and I’m still running and I’m exhausted and this is my permission to rest. How did you get into the work that you’re doing and start to even write your book in pursuit? What led you to go, you know what, I need to write a book about this.
Jessica Smarro (03:50)
Oh gosh. So there’s two things that came up when you asked that question. So one, had like kind of what got me into this work and being in pursuit of something. I go back to childhood stuff, right? Like we all have a story and I grew up in a family where I looked around and I was like, this ain’t it. This ain’t it. I had family members who are in and out of jail and prison and a lot of addiction. And I always felt like I was in pursuit of something else, right? And so
getting out of that, having a different life. And so then I did, right? I got out of it. I was valedictorian. I was the first in my family to go to college. And then I was like, why stop there? Let’s go on and go to grad school and get the good on paper job, the good on paper marriage. I had a job that took me to the White House. I was doing amazing stuff. And I remember having a moment where I was like, but it feels like I’m living.
a life in black and white. Like it feels like I’m living a half-lived life. And one day my husband asked me, just like a casual morning coffee talk, he was like, what are you most afraid of? And just what came out of my mouth surprised me actually. Because what I said was, I’m afraid that I’m never gonna actually enjoy my life. Wow. Right? Because I had, know, had, as a kid, I was like, this is the life that I want. This is exactly like a home. I can come into my house. It is peaceful. I know what to expect. It’s consistent. I have a life that looked on paper.
Like everything I had wanted, all the boxes had been checked. And yet I was, it was still striving. was still, something was missing. I only knew how to be efforting towards something. I didn’t know how to be in the having. I didn’t know how to be in the receipt of it. And so we need, it’s a skillset to do this. We need to learn how to be in pursuit, because we’re ambitious people, right? We don’t want to just do that. We want to be in pursuit of something, but could we actually give ourselves the gift of what it’s like to have?
the things we’re going after. So that’s why I wrote the book.
Amberly Lago (05:47)
Wow. And I think so many people listening right now can relate to that. And I very much so can the way that I was raised. And I was like, this is not for me. I’m getting out of this small town. I’m to go make something in my life. And in fact, you know, it was funny. I was just in bed last night thinking about, wow, where have the last 10 years gone?
because I started speaking and writing books and all the things like 10 years ago and it’s like in a flash, it’s just flown by. And I have this one, this is the last bit of time I have before my youngest daughter goes off to college. And so I’ve decided to really just spend some quality time with her in these last moments I have before she’s off to school and I’m an empty nester. And then
also focus on my health. And I think that so many women push and push and push and they’re about the grit and you have to do so many things. If you’re a mom, a wife, or you know, a friend, a sister, whatever that may be and work at the same time. It’s a lot of boxes to check. And a lot of times we put ourselves last on the list. Do you have a lot of clients that come to you that are like,
I’m not feeling fulfilled, I’m feeling so burnt out, I’m hanging on by a thread. And if so, what is the first thing that you suggest for them to do to start to improve their life and spark more joy?
Jessica Smarro (07:18)
Yeah, that’s a great question. And the answer is yes. In short, yes, I have the people coming that aren’t saying that. And here’s what I will often ask. What do you want? Right? And you can imagine, right? I asked that question and people look at me often with like deer in the headlights. And one woman said to me, I don’t even know how to answer that question. Like, right? know you, right? Because if you think about all of the roles you just mapped out, all of the things that we do, so much of it is externally focused.
Right. And we can have a whole separate, probably podcast episode on the social conditioning about why we find ourselves in those situations. As women, we are often conditioned to be caretakers and the givers and the, we’re the ones look, we’re looking out around us to see what is needed and making sure all of that is tended to. And so it’s not a first thought we have of let me go inside. What is it that I actually want? And a lot of times when we were feeling burnout and depleted and exhausted, it’s like, what’s that quote? Somebody asked like, um,
Don’t ask what the world needs, ask what you want and then go do more of that. Like what often we need is to be doing something that actually lights us up. It’s actually, or here was the other quote that was coming was, if you’re tired and exhausted, it’s not because you’re doing too much, it’s because you’re doing too little of what lights you up. So the idea of when we’re burnout, where you’re like, yeah, there’s a really good chance you are not aligned to what you actually want. And for most of us, that is a terrifying question because we’re like, I don’t know what I want.
And some of the reason is because if you listen, if you’re listening and you’re like me, when I was a kid, I thought for sure there was a giant rule book, capital R rule book somewhere with like an appendix answer key in the back. There was just a rule what we’re supposed to do to get it all right. So it never occurred to me to go within. I just needed to know what the rule book was saying. And then if I do that, then I get to be okay. Then I get to be accepted. Then I’m approved of, then I’m safe. Right? So again, if you’re exhausted, that for the person is coming and exhausted.
What I will often ask is, what do you want? And I just want to say, that’s probably a scary question. If you hear that and you like get a little nauseous, that’s okay. That’s okay. Yeah.
Amberly Lago (09:15)
Yeah.
Well you know what it made me think of is that meme that is one of my favorite movies ever is the notebook and where he’s like, what do you want? What do you want? And she’s like, I don’t know.
Jessica Smarro (09:36)
Yeah, right. We don’t and it’s not and this is the thing. It’s not that we don’t know. It’s that we’ve never given ourselves a chance to listen and I think of it like this. Imagine when you’re learning a new language. You’re like it literally sounds like gibberish, right? And it’s the same thing when you don’t know the language of yourself. It’s it might sound like nothingness. It might sound like gibberish and it’s not because you don’t actually know what you want. It’s simply because you are unfamiliar with listening to.
Amberly Lago (10:03)
think so too, and I think that to get familiar with the way that ⁓ our soul speaks to us, our bodies speak to us, because I know that when it’s not in alignment with me, your gut knows. I feel like your gut knows. And so are there ways that you teach for people to start to understand the way that their soul is speaking to them,
what they really want, is it journaling, is it sitting in silence, is it prayer, is there anything that you teach them to do to help them with that?
Jessica Smarro (10:42)
Yes, all of the things. are so many things. And when you were saying that, when you mentioned how much wisdom our body has, again, for the listener, for those who are the high achieving, ambitious folks, if you’re anything like I was, I was like, I’m just a floating head. I just experienced the world between my two ears. I’m a licensed therapist. And I remember the first time a therapist would be like, where do you feel that in your body? And I was like, what do you, I was like Jennifer Lawrence on that, like what do you mean?
What do you mean I have a body? And there’s so much wisdom that we are missing because we don’t go there, right? We are so much in our heads. so while journaling can, I’m a thought work, you know, I do a lot of thought work. I’m a mindset coach. So I love a good awareness of our thoughts. And to your point, when you are figuring out how your truth, like your capital T truth speaks to you, it’s not always in words, right? Sometimes it is in a felt sense. It’s in signs and symbols.
So in the book, the way I map out the book is the prison, the path, and the pursuit. And in the middle section, in the path, I go through essentially my freedom formula. And one of those is a section called staying with the emotion. And a lot of that is about getting in your body and learning how to have conversations with your body, learning how to do listening sessions so that, again, if you feel like, I’m a floating head. I don’t know what I want. I don’t know if my wisdom speaks to me.
Yeah, there’s a whole system there where you practice. Here’s a hack. It sounds so simple. You’re going to be listening going, what do you, this doesn’t, this can’t be good. This can’t be useful. But if you are checking in with how you’re feeling and maybe what you want and maybe what your wisdom is guiding you to simply ask yourself, where do I notice this in my body? And it’s a great, it just drops you out of your head. drops you into your body and you can start. That’s just one hack to start to even tune into your body. And then of course I can, you know, we can go down the rabbit hole of
of more things from there, but part of it is just acknowledging that there is wisdom outside of what’s happening between my two ears.
Amberly Lago (12:45)
Yeah, I love that idea. And you know, I was in the fitness industry for 26 years. I trained clients in group sessions and one-on-one sessions. And it was mind blowing to me. And I have tuned out of, there’s been many a times I’ve tuned out of my body because I was like, I don’t want to feel this pain. I’m going to just ignore it until I couldn’t anymore. But I was always amazed when I would have
clients that were so out of tune with their body. I’ll give you an example. I had one client that she messaged me and she said, I think I have the flu. I just, hurt all over. It was the first time she had ever actually moved her body to where she had a little lactic acid and she was actually sore. She thought she was sick. She was actually sore. So she was just starting to be in tune with her body.
I have had clients that I would say to move their body in a certain way. And there was like, there was a disconnect from their brain to that body part and they couldn’t do one movement. They couldn’t even contract a muscle. And so one thing I do that I, that is a powerful exercise that has really helped me to kind of
get out of my head because sometimes I at night seem to be thinking my mind just starts going and going, but kind of get me back in tune with my body and relaxing is I do a meditation and it takes you through getting focusing on body parts, literally focusing on tightening your quads and releasing it, tightening your hands and releasing that and breath work. Breath work is
powerful.
Jessica Smarro (14:40)
Mm-hmm. People forget like the simplicity of it. This is the thing, at least again, if anyone’s like me, I will speak from the eye. Again, I can be incredibly cerebral and intellectualize things. And so I’m going to share a couple of things here. And I think even in the book I say, do not let the simplicity of this fool you. Like, because you think about breath work, like that’s just such a simple thing. I’m breathing in and out. That can’t be powerful. And I always say, try it, test it out, experiment, right? Because there are some things…
to your point when you’re like, if you’re overthinking and you are really up in your head, there are some things like bilateral stimulation, grabbing your stress ball, your air pod case, and like going back and forth. If y’all aren’t watching this, yeah, I’m swinging my arms outside to side, some bilateral stimulation, some tapping, doing something as simple as when you get up to go refill your water bottle, actually feel the, look how giant this water bottle is by the way. It’s like the size of my entire torso.
But noticing the temperature and texture when you pick it up like something that you’re already doing again for for people who have full schedules and lots of things happening We often will avoid these kind of meditative getting into your body practices But you can start small start with stuff You’re already doing when you’re brushing your teeth actually pay attention to the temperature of the water feel the sun You know the fizzy’s in your mouth or when you get up to go to the restroom feel the the cold
and texture of the handle, right? These things that are, you’re already doing. And these, again, it seems incredibly simple, but what is happening behind the scenes in neurologically and physiologically is the stuff that starts to rewire your nervous system and your brain.
Amberly Lago (16:19)
That’s
so good though. That’s so good because I know, I don’t know if you’ve ever done this before. I’ve driven somewhere and I’m like, my goodness, I don’t even remember. was on. Yeah, like in my head the whole way and I’m like, how is that even possible? you know, I did something really interesting. I also did this post.
Jessica Smarro (16:32)
You drove me here, Cybertruck.
Amberly Lago (16:47)
where I said the first three words that you see are gonna be your three words or three mantra, the mantra of your year. And do you know every single person that did that exercise was like, my gosh, this is totally what I’m working on this year. That’s wild. And I’m like, well, yeah, we do kind of whatever we seek out, we will find. And so I love this idea that you’re saying.
Do the things that you already do. And also, I like to tell people to hunt for the good and be a joy worker. Go and notice the things that bring them joy. ⁓ And I love that one thing I love about your book so much is that it’s not about fixing yourself. ⁓ You write, well, you write, the book is not about fixing yourself, but why do you feel that so many
high achieving women especially have this need that they feel broken. They’re like, I need to be fixed. Something’s wrong with me.
Jessica Smarro (17:51)
Yeah, well we I think we learn early on right if we look out and we see Something that is different than what we are our brain just automatically in a protective way like so then I must be the problem I must be the thing I must be the thing that gets fixed and so I think so much gets missed in that and I talk a lot about You know this idea that we are not a problem to be solved. We are someone to be known
And it’s so, it just shifts the whole thing. But we know, even if it’s not like we think ourselves as a problem to be solved, again, I think as high achievers, we look out and if we have a goal, we’re working on something, we’re like, whatever is in my way, I just need to fix that. And then that, I problem solve and I go and do the thing, right? And so this is sort of flipping that on its head to consider what if there’s nothing to be fixed? What if there’s nothing to problem solve? Because here’s the thing, spoiler alert.
If we go down that fixing rabbit hole, you’re gonna have that moment where you look around and you’re like, why doesn’t this feel the way that I thought it would feel? Well, because your whole process was filled with fixing things and self-loathing and condom, that is not gonna get you. The destination is always gonna feel like the journey. And if it’s the whole worldview is this is a problem, my life is a problem, this thing in my business is a problem, this thing in my marriage is a problem, I am a problem, the destination is gonna feel that way too.
A lot of us are trained, so it just becomes habituated throughout our life when we look at everything as a problem. To your point earlier, our brain will look for evidence of what we tell it to look for. And if we see ourselves as a problem, your brain, you’ve all heard of the reticular activating system when you’re shopping for a red car, suddenly you see red cars everywhere because your brain is trained to look for the evidence it’s being told to look for. So we get that little whiff or one experience where we think there’s something wrong with me. I don’t belong here. And then your brain says,
let me look for more evidence of that. And then suddenly you’re like, this is, I have lots of reasons to believe that there’s something wrong with me, that I don’t belong, that there’s a problem here, right? So I just thought about what if we just let go of that worldview? What if it’s possible that that is not the way? What if we are not a problem to be solved? We are something to be known. And I talk about it. The analogy that always comes to me is thinking about a vehicle. When you get a new vehicle, you’re…
You want to know the make and the model and the features and you want to look at the handbook, see what it can do. You don’t look at a Honda Civic and be like, why is this an, why can’t this off road off the mountains? Right? You’re like, no, this is not an ATV, right? But that’s what we do with ourselves, right? We look about, we’re like, why can’t I do what they’re doing? You’re like, well, that has nothing to do with you. Everyone is on their own individualized curriculum plan. Get curious about you. You are something to be known. Get curious about what you have to offer. Get curious about how you work.
get curious about the talents and gifts and all the little ingredients that you have to, what can you put that together to make? But we get very busy looking, well, what are they doing? And that’s I’m supposed to do it. And I don’t think I, I don’t have flour and sugar. what, hold on. I’ve got like crackers and cheese. What, what is that? But I think I’m supposed to be a cookie, right? Now I’m just mixing all kinds of analogies. We’re talking about cars and cookies and bread and.
Amberly Lago (20:58)
You know what? It makes sense, especially with today in today’s age of social media. And I mean, I’m guilty of it. I have, I got, I went down the rabbit hole the other day. I don’t even know how I got on some family ⁓ Instagram page where they were just the cutest fan came up on the, just up in my feet. didn’t, didn’t even follow them. They didn’t, they don’t even do anything.
similar to what I do, but they were the cutest family and the husbands on there on her page and her two kids and they they just and the dog and they just make reels together and just it’s the cutest thing ever and they get millions of views and I was like I found myself actually going Yeah. well that that’s so cute. Well, what if I could get Johnny to finally do a reels with me? Well
My husband hates social media. He will not get on my social media. I had to beg him to be on my podcast and it was after a hundred episodes that I finally got him to be on my podcast. ⁓ That’s not me. It’s apples to oranges, you know? And so was like, get off here. Like what? So I love that we have to stay what feels with what’s in alignment with us. What is our truth?
In the same last year, I think I listened to so many different advisors and telling me, well, you need this funnel and you need this and you need for actually, I have to admit a couple of years now where you need to have this and you need to do this. And I’m all about having a mentor, a coach, an advisor, someone, but you have people that
that might be the right system for their dentist that they work with who has sold millions of dollars worth of things by using that funnel. But that’s not right for me. And it spread myself too thin. So I think this applies in so many different ways. And I think I love that you talk about invisible prisons. Like one of the things that you talk about is perfectionism. And I know a lot of people that that
And mean, I’m an overcoming perfectionist where I was like, it has to be just right before I will post that or do that. how, when you have someone come to you who is a perfectionist, how do you start to break them out of that prison?
Jessica Smarro (23:34)
Yeah, I think getting curious about because to be clear, perfectionism and excellence are two very different things. Perfectionism is a protective strategy. Excellence, if you just aspire to create something and you want to iterate it until it turns excellent, that’s a great, that can be a very fulfilling way to live. Perfectionism says it has to be just right in order that fill in the blank, right?
Amberly Lago (23:58)
Such
a great differentiator. can’t even talk, but I’m not trying to be perfect right now.
Jessica Smarro (24:05)
Right,
see, we’ll be in the, just let it be, yeah. Yeah, because perfectionism, it hides us, right? It’s like a 10-ton shield. And it’s an attempt to say, if I get it just right, then I get to be okay. So when somebody comes to me and they’re saying, know, they’re struggling with perfectionism. And a lot of people, now listen, if you’ve done this, you know, back in my first career, I did a lot of interviewing and hiring, right, and leadership. And you would ask the question, you know, like,
What’s your weak, know, is there an area that you need to work on? And like their veiled attempt of making it sound nice, like I really, you know, struggle with perfectionism and like that you think it sounds nice, right? And for, again, perfectionism is not about excellence. It’s, ⁓ so if somebody says, I am struggling with perfectionism, I will often say, what do you hope that it will give you? Like if you got it just right, if you nailed it and everyone agreed that it was perfect, what would having that give you?
Right? And then what would having that give you? And what would having that give you? Right? So you can, I love to do like seven layers deep. What would that have, what would that give you so that you can really understand what it is that you want? Usually perfectionism is some version of safety, acceptance, approval. Right? If I get to, if I get it just right, then I get to be safe. And so then we can just get really clear. Well, what is, we could just start cultivating whatever that is that you want, whether it’s safety, approval, whatever, we could just work on that.
that perfectionism was never gonna get you there. Yeah.
Amberly Lago (25:34)
That’s so good. I love how you break it down and go deep because some people think that actually perfectionism is a good thing. Yeah. And what really helped me with that was when I, my whole leg became deformed and I’m like, well, screw perfect. I’d rather be brave and I’d rather be free. So I’m going to wear shorts and people might judge me for having a jacked up leg, but hey, I can wear shorts.
Jessica Smarro (26:03)
Yeah. The other thing I would tell people when they’re struggling with perfectionism is that, ⁓ first of I love to separate language. Like a lot of people say I’m a perfectionist. And I will say, you might engage in perfectionist behavior. You are not. You are not. Right. Because it’s very different. It seems it’s a lot more accessible to change a behavior than to change your identity. It’s like, with who I am. So that’s one thing. And then the other thing, people are often maybe not fully consciously, but subconsciously reluctant.
Amberly Lago (26:17)
you
Jessica Smarro (26:32)
to let go of those perfectionist strategies because they think that what they’ve created is because of it. So I will often tell people that every success, everything that you have created in your life is in spite of those perfectionistic strategies, not because of it. Like you have been carrying this extra weight of perfectionism that has actually made the process harder. But people are terrified to set it down because they’re like, if I set down perfectionism, then I’m just gonna be a slovenly, complacent, lazy,
unsuccessful human? No. Right, so we have to address some of the fears underneath even letting go of those perfectionist tendencies.
Amberly Lago (27:09)
Do you feel that a lot of these, the things that make, imprison people, like these invisible prisons that, like perfectionism, people pleasing, ⁓ do you feel that that stems from being a feeling of, like they feel they’re unworthy? Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Smarro (27:32)
Yeah, I mean, yes, it’s take like those Dixie chicks, know taking the long way around like this is a song for back when was that thousand back when they were still the Dixie chicks but yeah, there’s idea that if I just that’s why I say like what is it that having that will give you because a lot of times people will get to that place like if everyone is well pleased with me if I make everyone happy if my spouse is okay if my kids okay if who all they them’s out there if they approve of me if I please everybody then what
Well, then I’ll know that I’m good. Then I’ll know that it’s okay and acceptable and worthy, right? If I get it just right, then I will believe, I finally am good enough. A lot of it comes from this unworthiness stuff. And so I, you know, like what I talk about in the book too is, you know, I liked this idea of what if you just imagine that when you were born, when you came to this world, baked into the little human baby flesh suit, into this human suit of you was all the worthiness you were ever gonna have.
There’s nothing you could do to get more of it. There’s nothing you could do to lose it. Your worthiness is just inherent. Now that in and of itself, we might spend a whole six months coaching on, Like just get to the place of accepting that. But when you can just put over here, like your worthiness as a person, when that’s just already solved for, then all the things that you’re in pursuit of, your big dreams, the book you wanna write, the race you wanna run, the marriage you wanna create, all of that is…
so much more fun and so much more fulfilling when, and you’re willing to go way bigger, you’re willing to take way bigger risks, you’re willing to put yourself out there when you know my worthiness is already solved for. I’m not trying to pursue this thing in an effort to justify my worthiness. Because again, spoiler alert, it never does, right? If the belief is I’m unworthy, just because you go out and you accomplish some incredible things, mean, sadly, this is why we see.
self-harm and suicide among so many ⁓ celebrities and high achieving people. And you’re like, what, they were such a gift to the world. But when all of those accomplishments were coming from the belief, I’m not worthy, and then you achieve all those things and you still feel unworthy. That can be such a profoundly scary and sad place to be. And that’s why this work is so important. Like if you are in pursuit of something, it is not the thing, right? If you are in pursuit as a…
Amberly Lago (29:41)
way. Yeah.
Jessica Smarro (29:55)
of a goal or whatever it is as an intermediary to your feeling, it’s never gonna serve. It’s never gonna serve. It’s never gonna give you that thing that you thought you wanted. So your worthiness, I’m sad to report and simultaneously it’s good news. That’s a whole separate, that is an inside job.
Amberly Lago (30:11)
It is, it really is. that’s so, ⁓ you know, I’ve worked with a therapist and coach and I’ve worked just a sponsor, a mentor. I’ve had them all. I still do.
Jessica Smarro (30:24)
I was like, the gang’s all here, you know what I mean?
Amberly Lago (30:27)
game on your large crew. But when you break it down and you go, ⁓ wow. Look at my, you know, my defaults defects is what we call it in recovery and what that stems from. And when you go layer after layer after layer and you realize, my goodness, all these things that I’ve been doing come from this feeling of needing to feel safe or
feeling worthy of love or it’s wild. I think really every decision that we make, relationships that we’re in and what we do with our life is based on going deep.
Jessica Smarro (31:14)
That’s
why I call myself like a good causal coach. Like I’m not gonna, I mean, there are strategy things, there are action things we’re gonna do, but what I am very skilled at is doing exactly what you just said there. Like we’re just gonna go right to the heart of the matter and then we’re gonna work on that. And then the other stuff is gonna fall in place, right? When you can see, when you can get committed, when we can drink the Kool-Aid and get on board with when we know we are upset about something and we can just agree it is not the thing in front of us, right? If it’s, you know.
kids are acting up or they’re doing something and I’m some kind of way. And I think my, again, our default is let’s go fix the problem. And we can just pause and go, okay, I’m upset. I’m having a feeling about something. Let me get into this feeling and let me see how familiar that feeling is, right? Maybe something is happening and you’re like, ooh, I’m feeling rejected, right? This is, it could be something like, you know, group of girlfriends went out and I didn’t get invited and I see them posting out on social media and you’re like, oof, I feel rejected.
And you could, again, we could stay on the surface and be like, oh, well, let me just go talk about them or let me go, let me call them out and confront them or let me go talk about them to somebody else. Or we can pause and see, hold on, what got activated for me here? What is this feeling? Right? And is this familiar? And then we can get real, if you want to go real deep, y’all, just walk you through this. You could say, when do I remember, like, if I could go all the way back, like, do I remember like the first time having this feeling? Maybe as in a childhood, right?
When is the first memory I have of feeling this feeling of rejection or abandonment? And you go there and then you get curious. When I felt that, what was the story I made it mean? What did I make it mean about me? I’m unlovable. I’m not good enough. There’s something wrong with me. I don’t belong. Okay. And then you make it like, this is what I, this is how, when I do forgiveness work, this is why I like to think of forgiveness. Forgiveness is about having a moment of I forgive myself.
for believing something about me that could never be true, that I’m unlovable, something’s wrong with me, I’m unworthy. And then I forgive myself for forgetting what was always true about me, right? That I’m whole, that I’m worthy, that I’m loved, that my goodness remains intact, that again, as that little baby human flesh through all of my worth was baked into that. Like, ⁓ okay. And then when you feel that you’re like, ⁓ okay, this feels like warm in my body, this feels solid and grounded and whole. And now from that feeling,
Now what do I think about the thing that activated all of this? Now what do I think about seeing friends on social media out without me? Like, I hope they really had a great time. You’re gonna totally change. So when you do the inner work, it’s just a lot easier to see, do I really need to get busy doing out here? And again, we go back to one of your first questions about being burnt out and overwhelmed. When you start to do some of this work, you might easily siphon off a bunch of the extra stuff that you were doing.
to try to fix a feeling when you’re like, ⁓ I’ve got the inner infrastructure now to just address that. And then it’s just a lot easier to see what do I want to be doing out here in the world with my business, with my career, with my relationships, if I’m not trying to do, if I’m not trying to get busy out there to try to have a feeling in here. ⁓
Amberly Lago (34:26)
Yeah, that’s powerful. And I was just telling one of my clients yesterday, actually, I said, Well, yeah, I know it’s hard right now. But when you do the hard thing first, life gets easier. But when you do the easy thing over and over and over, life gets harder and harder and harder. So just do it. You know, so I but there’s also another thing I want to talk with you because I know we’re running out of time. But you are just
so brilliant and I could just listen to you all day. And I love that you talk about the arrival addiction. Chasing the next milestone thinking that this will finally bring peace or maybe it’ll bring fulfillment or maybe it’ll make you feel worthy or make you more lovable or maybe, ⁓ look, they’ve made it. Now, I don’t feel like I’ve ever arrived. I really don’t.
And so maybe that’s my problem. Like I’m chasing the next, I gotta go for more, gotta do more. I am a recovering alcoholic. there is more, you know, I like, there’s that maybe that disease of the more. Can you talk about that, that arrival addiction and how can we break it?
Jessica Smarro (35:43)
Yeah, it’s a little bit of what we talked about, like this idea that when I get there, this thing is going to happen, right? When I get the next gold star, when I get the next achievement, that’s where my fulfillment will be. The next promotion, right? This is that arrival fallacy that if I just get the marriage that I always wanted or the partnership that I always wanted, when I finally have a kid that the kid that I’ve been dreaming of, I’ve been efforting towards getting pregnant, whatever the thing is, when I finally hit that revenue goal in my business, then
fill in the blank, right? That’s the arrival fallacy. When you think that the next thing is gonna give you what you want, that’s the problem. And so that one I was talking about earlier is like, but the destination is gonna feel like the journey, right? And I like to think about that arrival fallacy and the arrival addiction. It’s like the horizon. It’s always moving, right? And this is where it can be really ⁓ nuanced for ambitious people because…
We’re like, yeah, I wanna keep evolving. I love a good growth edge. We love being outside of our comfort zone and into that stretch zone. Again, the difference is being really clear about what do you think that it will give you, usually a feeling, friends, right? Like you said, like peace or fulfillment. And the work, again, as a mindset coach, I teach your thoughts are what create your emotions, not the external circumstances, not the promotion, not the revenue goal, not the number of followers.
But a story you’re telling yourself in your mind is what’s going to create the emotion. And when you can channel that and you can, if you want to feel peaceful and fulfilled, work on telling yourselves the story, building the beliefs that actually let you feel that ahead of time. And then the process in route, like when you are in the pursuit, then you get to feel that way in route. And that’s the antidote to the arrival fallacy, right? Or the arrival addiction is if you can just help yourself feel it’s like an addiction, like substance addiction.
Like, I need to get that next thing or I need to numb out. We’re either chasing a feeling or avoiding a feeling. That’s what arrival addiction is about. Chasing a feeling or avoiding a feeling. But when you just learn to be with your feelings and you learn to create the feelings that you want on purpose, then you just get to go after what you want. That’s good. I was going add this really quick because, again, for someone listening, I imagine they’re like, but if I could feel the way I want ahead of time, if I could already feel the way I think it would feel when I hit that fitness goal or I get the promotion,
then they’re afraid, then if I already feel satisfied and fulfilled ahead of time, I won’t go after the goal anymore. And to that I say, if that’s what you think, if you think, if I stopped hating my body, then I wouldn’t want to lose weight or if I stopped hating my body, I wouldn’t have the fitness goal. To that I would say, then the goal is never gonna give you what you thought it was going to give you. Like if you just wanted that goal because you thought it was gonna make you feel better, that’s the arrival addiction. That’s the arrival fantasy that you think it’s gonna give you this feeling that it’s never gonna give you.
Amberly Lago (38:34)
Well, I think that’s why it’s so important. Like my book, Joy Through the Journey, like finding the joy, for me, I think it would be a life of suffering if you were only working out as a way of punishing yourself and that you’re only going to feel better once you lose that 10 pounds or that 50 pounds or you gain that much muscle or whatever it may be.
Jessica Smarro (38:41)
Exactly.
Amberly Lago (39:03)
That’s awful, but when you can find joy in it, listen to your favorite music, work out with a friend, ⁓ know, take a class that you love or just go out in nature and take your dog for a walk. That then that’s sustainable. ⁓ So you think that if there’s if there’s somebody out there that’s like, well, gosh, now I feel a little confused. I’m not sure if my ambition is healthy or actually a form.
of avoidance? Is this a real addiction for me? What’s the one thing that they could do right now?
Jessica Smarro (39:38)
Ask how they feel. Right? Like that’s a great way to know if again, there’s, cause I hear this again, for those of us who might be the rule bound folks, you think, there’s a, there’s a certain kind of way of doing this that makes it good ambition. There’s a certain way of doing it that makes bad ambition. No, the only way you know is by how it feels. If it feels exhausting, if it feels overwhelming pressure field, urgency, scarcity, then right. If you’re having thoughts like I’ll, I’ll get to take a vacation when.
After we get this account taken care of, then I can take a vacation. I’ll get to rest. I can finally go to my kid’s little league once I get this X, and Z. If you’re having thoughts like that, then you’ll know, ⁓ maybe I am. If you’re doing like the win then, right? When this happens, then I’ll get to do this. Then you’re like, maybe there’s a good chance that I’m in that arrival addiction land.
Amberly Lago (40:32)
that’s so good. Now, I imagine some of, you you might be listening going, well, I hear all this, it makes sense, but I’m a little scared that if I start listening to myself, that means I’m gonna be blowing up my entire life. What would you say to that person?
Jessica Smarro (40:52)
Yeah, that’s exactly. I’ll do, I do a lot of content around. You do not have to blow up your own life when you say, cause people get scared like, self honoring. If I listen to myself, two things, one is there’s something incredibly powerful when you just start listening to yourself, even if you don’t act on it, right? Like just, and I think that’s a really good way. Again, if you start, if you’re trying to somebody asks you the question, what do you want? You’re like, I don’t know. Also, if you tell yourself, Hey, we don’t have to do anything with the information.
Right now we’re just trying to hear it from our desires. We don’t, right? So that’s one piece of it. The second piece is because we’re so unfamiliar, when somebody says that, like, I’m afraid that if I listen to myself, I’m gonna blow up my whole life. It also tells me there’s probably just not a lot of self-trust. Like that gives you insight into the relationship as if like the thing inside of us is like this evil mastermind that is like, aha, as soon as you listen to desire, like I’m gonna destroy your life instead of thinking.
hey, maybe there’s something inside of me whose purpose is only like my highest good, right? And that all of me is on my team and that maybe that includes my desire and maybe my desire. Cause people are like, you know, think of the people who I hate my body. Well, if I love my body, then I’m just gonna be slovenly and I’m only gonna like sit on the couch watching Netflix and eating, you know, cheese and never moving my body ever again. It’s as if.
as if they don’t believe that self-love resides within, that there’s not, know, that our truth inside is not actually for our good. And so I would say if somebody’s having that fear, it’s likely because they haven’t had a lot of time with themselves, right? And don’t know that the voice of their desire might actually be gentle and kind and for our good.
Amberly Lago (42:35)
that’s so good. And then why do you think that it is so hard for successful women especially to really sit with their feelings?
Jessica Smarro (42:48)
Yeah, I think people in general, because they’re uncomfortable. Like that is the shortest answer. Like it’s uncomfortable. One, and two, honestly, here’s my honest answer, is because they haven’t done it. Like if you are afraid of sitting with your feelings, it tells me you have not actually done it because one, our emotions are vibrations in our body. They are limited. Like that is it. they, it’s, and if you sit with it,
Like they say this, scientifically speaking, y’all, that a vibration of an emotion will last the length of a contraction. And I never gave birth to humans, but if you did, if any of you are listening as a woman, most, lots of them do it. I mean, I did that, some, most of them do. And so you’ve felt a contraction, you’ve breathed through and y’all, if you have more than one child, that means you signed up for this again. So you were like, I am willing to do something uncomfortable and feel the 92nd time-limited vibration of a contraction because of what it will give me.
And it’s the same thing with feelings. They are time limited and they will pass. But people are terrified of feeling them because a lot of them, this is what they’ll say to me, I’m afraid if I sit with it, I will be swallowed up inside of it and I’ll never get out. And so that’s why I have to say, if that’s your fear, it tells me you’ve never actually felt like the actual skill of feeling a feeling. So go check out chapter six of In Pursuit, stay with an emotion. walk you.
through the steps of feeling of feeling. Many of us think our feelings, like we get caught up when we’re thinking about it and we think we’re processing it, but we’re actually thinking about it. That is not feeling of feeling. Feeling of feeling happens in our body and it is a vibration and it passes. So if you’re afraid, it just tells me you maybe haven’t done it yet. And so you don’t know, it’s not as bad as you think. So set the timer for 10 seconds. Where is this in my body? Feel the vibration of the feeling.
And even for 10 seconds and just see what shifts in that. And for some people, even in 10 seconds, the whole thing will pass. And then you’ll be like, holy crap. This is what, so back in the day when I used to run jail diversion programs, so I was working at the intersection of mental health addiction and the criminal justice system. And I was working with a guy who had been in and out of prison for so much of his adult life. And he was like, hey Jess, you exchange 40 hours a week for a paycheck. I’m just willing to exchange my civil liberties to go, you know, for like the money that I get in my life.
And when he was going through recovery and had been sober for a while and we were working on feeling feelings and he had this moment and he was feeling a really gritty one of like guilt and it passed and he looked at me with tears in his eyes, 40 something year old man and not tears because the emotion was painful, but he looked at me and he said, I have lost so much of my life. I have lost my freedom. I have lost my family. I have lost my kids because I was afraid of feeling a feeling and that’s all it was.
That’s all it was, was a temporary sensation in my body that passed on its own. Like, yeah, right? So the things that we will do to actually blow up our lives, right? Because we’re afraid of feeling and feeling. So for the person who’s listening is like, I’m terrified. Hey, you’re not alone. A lot of people are, and I promise you, it’s not as scary. And you’re not, and don’t believe me, try it. Like don’t take my word for it, try it on. And chapter six of In Pursuit will help you if you’re like, I don’t know where to start.
that it will walk you through, it’ll hold your hand and walk you through how to feel feeling in your body.
Amberly Lago (46:10)
That’s so good. mean, that’s so good for anybody with, mean, I think we all have some sort of addiction, whether it’s to a substance or shopping or speed dating or whatever it may be. And just to feel the feeling, but our, our, just want the quick way, the quick and easy. don’t want to feel this. want to run from it. So that was powerful. What a powerful way to wrap this up.
And of course I have so many more questions for you. Like you’re amazing. I do. ⁓ Okay. Do you have time for one more question? Okay. I just love your phrase from your book, the sacred mess of becoming. Can you talk about that a little bit and then we’ll tell people where they can grab your book.
Jessica Smarro (46:51)
Yes.
Yeah, the god, this is my I’m like sweating just thinking about this already. I hate the messy middle, but that’s exactly why I talk about it. ⁓ And what I talk about in the book, the sacred mess of becoming when I got a little bit existential when I was thinking about in pursuit because I thought ⁓ like whatever created us is always in pursuit of us.
Right? And so I was thinking when we’re in pursuit of our creations, that’s one of the ways that we can be in the experience of our own divinity, right? If that language resonates you or for whatever, but like in an experience of your truth. So I think the sacred mess of becoming, the sacred part of becoming is it’s not about the actual goal. Like I will say, I have a big fatty sat revenue goal and I’m talking about it because
And I wrote about it the book and I was like, gosh, even saying that, feel like people are gonna judge me and think I’m materialistic and no.
Amberly Lago (48:00)
⁓
I loved it. I actually saw that on your story on Instagram and I was like, heck yeah. Cause you know what I did all morning? Like I worked on tech stuff. So when I was like, yes, that’s exactly what I needed to hear. So I was like applauding you.
Jessica Smarro (48:19)
Yes. So, and the reason, I know, thank you, right? Because this is to my exact point that I think goals are actually a ⁓ spiritual process, right? Because when we set our sights on something, and again, it’s something that’s like something inside of me wants to create something, like we are tapping into our essence and who we are, and the goal is really about who we become in the process. It’s not actually about, and that’s the difference between arrival addiction, right? Versus…
actually being in pursuit in a really genuine fulfilling way, which is embracing that sacred becoming. Because what you’re going after it, it’s about, if I go back to my revenue goal, what I know is there are parts, and this is the part that lights me up, there are parts of me that I don’t know yet. There are skills that I have, there are ways of thinking. It’s like they are hiding up in my armpits in a nook and craning I have not explored. in going after this goal, I’m gonna get to know that. I’m gonna get to know her. I’m gonna get to know these parts.
I’m gonna get to know more of me. And to me, that’s what all of creation is about, being known. Like whatever created us is, I don’t know, like whatever your beliefs are, but I like to think it’s like, this is all just a delight in getting to know what we are, right? So when you set any goal, you’re just like, I just get to learn more about myself. I get to, and not cognitively, I get to experientially know and become more of who I truly am.
So again, I’ll geek out on that question. but that’s what I think. It is a sacred process and I think goals are just a way for us to experience our truth. And to me, I think that truth is our divinity.
Amberly Lago (49:54)
that’s beautiful. You are brilliant. I just love talking with you. Your book is so amazing. And like I said, I think it’s so needed like right now. So where’s the best place for people to find your book?
Jessica Smarro (50:10)
Yeah, the book Amazon right now is the best way. All of the Kindle paperback, hardcover, audible, I recorded it myself even. It’s all of the versions are on there. Amazon is the way in pursuit. Jessica Smarrow, that’ll get you there.
Amberly Lago (50:23)
Thank
you. Thank you so much. and then also tell people your website and where they can follow you, where you hang out the most on social media.
Jessica Smarro (50:33)
Thank
you. Yeah. So JessicaSmarrow.com, just my name spelled out and S-M-A-R-R-O. I get all kinds of interesting spellings when people tag me and things. ⁓ And the way I hang out most is on Instagram. So JessicaSmarrow is just my name. So come follow along. And again, the social work I mean is like, I love to put out a ton of free content through the podcast, through my social media, get on my email list. I’m always doing something different and to invite people into the conversation. So. ⁓
connect with me in all of the ways. And, and yeah, if you’re interested in coaching or I have some exciting things coming up and new ways to work with me in 2026. So if you want to know about that, go to my website, sign up for the newsletter so that you get notified of when those things are.
Amberly Lago (51:15)
Thank you. And if you’re listening and you’re on for a driving or out for a walk, don’t worry. I’ll have all these links in the show notes. you know what? If you really enjoyed this episode as much as me, then take a screenshot, whatever platform you’re listening on, whether it’s Apple, Spotify, I don’t know, maybe you’re watching YouTube right now and tag us, Amberlee Logo Motivation and Jessica at Jessica.
tomorrow, S-M-A-R-R-O. Again, those links will be in the show notes as well. And Tagus, I love to see when people tag me in their stories and let me know that they’re listening to it. And Jessica, thank you so much for being on the show. I know that this interview is gonna be one that people are gonna go back, they’re gonna replay, they’re gonna share it. ⁓ I know I’m gonna go back and listen and take notes, ⁓ even though I have all the
The questions in front of me, I want to go back and listen and take notes just from what you said. So thank you so much for being here and thank y’all so much for tuning in to the show and making this a top 1 % podcast. I wouldn’t be able to do it without you. It’s because of your support and you downloading the show. So thank you. And Jess, I hope to see you in person soon. Congratulations again on your book and I will talk to y’all. See y’all next week. Thank you.
Jessica Smarro (52:39)
Amazing. Thank you, Amberlee.
